Use of USB Thumb on MB Pro

[Bart]

I can't find a topic (will be my fault) about using a thumb USB on an MB Pro. I formatted it on MS-DOS (fat) and a backup arrives just fine.
Is it correct that I can't read the USB through the Pro? That I have to connect it to my desktop (iMac) to read it?
What else can I use the USB for? Can I use it for templates? I tried but could not discover the template other than on the internal USB.
In the admin / system tab I can choose whether the Pro boots from the internal USB or external USB (front or rear). What happens if I boot from the external USB? There is now only 1 database backup on it....

I do not get it.

Bart

[Wheetie]

I was wondering about this as well.

From what I can tell, it seems like the USB drive only mounts when actively doing a backup, and then unmounts so the drive is ready to be removed.

I haven't figured out a way to interact with the drive through the MB webUI, but you can see the backup databases stored on the USB in the Database Maintenance “Restore from” dropdown.

You do have the option to store the database media location on the external USB. But my understanding is that this is not a good idea, and the in-use database should be on the internal storage because its Industrial grade and can survive more read/writes. Using a cheapo USB stick as the primary database store runs the risk of damaging the USB drive and losing all your data. IMO, the external drive should only be used for backups.

You might be able to modify the backup.sh script to backup the other data folders to the USB.

[admin]

Option for using external USB as primary storage is just a temporary work aoround if the internal stick brakes. I strongly recommend NOT to use your own consomer non-SLC stick for that.

To make backups on external stick it needs to have a FAT32 partition. The way they come from the manufacturer.

[Bart]

Thanks, I already suspected that.
If I want to buy an SLC flash drive that can (possibly) also permanently take over the tasks of the internal drive, what specifications and/or brand should I buy? Could it also be an SD card (via an adapter)?
Thanks in advance.

Bart

[TonvG]

To make backups on external stick it needs to have a FAT32 partition. The way they come from the manufacturer.

A question related to this. As I wrote in the other topic discussion, I accidentally used the USB stick to write away my database. I changed that back and I needed to do a factory reset.

The USB stick of 16 (14.1) GB I formatted as FAT32 to start again. And I could make a backup. However I saw that only 196.9 MB of the 14 GB were in use. The backup file is 45,6 MB, so it went wel, but some more backups and it will be full soon.

So how to format it in Windows 10 or on the Mac? Choosing simply FAT32 isn't all to do.

Another problem that came after the backup. I could always easily connect to the MB Pro via the Mac or Win10. Now I suddenly can't make a connection anymore via those computers. Weird enough, on a Macbook that I also use, the connection can still be made. I used to login as a guest or via a password. But both don't work anymore. Also I selected SMB guests allowed again, did reboots, but nothing helped until now.

As one thing happened after the other, they might have some relation with each other I guess.

[Bart]

I'm assuming you didn't just format the drive's volume.
If you erase (Macos) or format (Windows) the parent device and not the volume, the meteobridge cannot read the volume properly. For example, Scandisk has a main boot directory. And you should NOT format it to FAT. Do not touch.

If you're using the USB on another computer (or machine), there's no problem with that USB drive. At least that's how I determined it by trying it out.

In my test I did not try to see if I could break my meteobridge. So I don't know what went wrong with your MB.
Have a nice weekend.
Greeting,

Bart

But I like to know if anyone knows the answer to the question above...

Thanks, I already suspected that.
If I want to buy an SLC flash drive that can (possibly) also permanently take over the tasks of the internal drive, what specifications and/or brand should I buy? Could it also be an SD card (via an adapter)?
Thanks in advance.

Bart

[drrehak]

Sorry to hijack the thread, but I'm having a similar problem.
New Pro.
Put a USB stick in the front slot.
Set database media to be USB on front.
Reboot.
Info tab shows the USB present, 0% used.
Try Backup Now.
Log says
--
logger (22.01.2022 11:57:04): connect station 9 (System Data via Plug-in).
backup (22.01.2022 11:57:57): no target media found.
logger (22.01.2022 11:57:58): error while doing write on socket 5551 (9): Bad file descriptor
---
Help. Suggestions on what's wrong? Thanks.

[Bart]

Drrehak,

For me there are no matches with my original question and I have got an answer.
Please read my answer. In my estimation, you can no longer use this external USB drive in the meteobridge. Clearing/formatting doesn't help either. Perhaps the USB can be repaired, brought to its original state via the manufacturer's site.

A new USB out of the box is formatted to the correct size for the MB and will work. As indicated earlier.

Regards,
Bart

[Gyvate]

1. you can still use an external USB stick or disk (HDD, SSD) for backups - it's working in my setup - it has to be FAT32 formatted though
I have two variants: 1. a USB/microSD adapter with a 400 GB microSD - 2. an external USB disk (HDD)
for backups only a SD card for video stream will be ok and will not be killed

2. you could even have the active database on this stick, when choosing the right option in the System/Administration
it is however not advisable to do so if the USB stick is not of the SLC type - HDDs or SSDs are no issue.
Too many I/O operations for a standard USB stick !!
The only reason why you would want to do so is that the database has grown too big for the 1 GB internal SLC USB stick.*

3. if you want to access the USB drive (stick, disk, ...) from Windows while it is connected to the MBPro, you have to mount it into the published file system portion which appears as \\METEOBRIDGE\data or \\IP-address-of-your-MeteobridgePro\data in the network section of Windows Explorer

In order to do so, you have to connect to your MBPro via SSH and mount the USB drive:
find out what is it's device name:
1. df -h #shows the mounted internal USB drive/stick
2. ls /dev/sd* -l #shows all special devices = USB drives - usually it's sda1, sometimes sdb1
3. mkdir /tmp/mnt/data/USB #the directory USB will become visible under \\METEOBRIDGE\data - that's a one-time activity
4. mount /dev/sda1 /tmp/mnt/data/USB #if the stick is sda1; if sdb1, you have to replace the "a" by a "b" in the command
Now you can see the content of the stick under Windows in the \\METEOBRIDGE\data\USB directory #may need a refresh of the view
As long as the directory remains opened in Windows Explorer, the mount will remain.
Once it's no longer open, the mount will disappear after the next backup (as the backup script unmounts and remounts the backup medium=stick)

*I had this size issue - and my solution was that I replaced the internal 1 GB SLC USB stick by a mini-USB/microSD adapter filled with a SLC type microSD of 8 GB - works perfectly and there's no risk that the SD card will be killed by too many write operations as it is SLC.

[Wheetie]

drrehak - You said you selected the front USB location for active database media. On reboot, the drive was formatted to EXT4 (linux) so MB can use it for the active database. Therefore the USB drive no longer contains a FAT32 partition, which is needed for database backups. So MB can't find the required FAT32 partition to use. It's the same scenario as using the internal drive for database media but without an external FAT32 USB connected, and trying to do a backup. Backup fails because there isn't a FAT32 partition. And it doesn't make any sense to make a backup to the SAME drive as the active database.

TonvG - You originally selected to use the external drive for database media as well, so your drive was also formatted to EXT4. Both Windows and macOSx cannot interact with EXT4 drives unless a 3rd party tool is used. Windows won't even recognize the drive. On macOSx you will get a pop up saying it can't read the disk and do you want to initialize it? Only after you initialize it can you see the drive in disk utility. Now you have 3 selections: Name, Partition, and Scheme. Name doesn't matter, partition HAS to be FAT32, and scheme HAS to be Master Boot Record (MBR). MacOSx defaults to GUID partition scheme, so you have to be careful and change this. While GUID will work in theory, macOSx will always create a hidden EFI partition, in addition to the one you are trying to create. The EFI partition is FAT32, about 196 mb in size, and given the #1 label (sda1 or sdb2, etc). It also will not automount on the macOSx desktop. And as far as I can tell, MB always mounts the #1 partition, so the EFI partition is the one that is mounted and used for backups. You have to go into disk utility, and as Bart mentions, select the drive volume, not the partition, in the side bar and use the "erase" function. The drive volume usually shows the vendor name in it, hit cmd2 if you dont see it. This is why you are only seeing the 196 mb available in the log message during MB backup, and why I showed the screenshot in your other post comparing backups on GUID and MBR formatted drives using macOSx.

As I said, GUID scheme will work, but you need to use a 3rd party tool, or 'gparted' in linux to avoid unknowingly creating the EFI FAT32 partition that macOSx automatically creates.

OK, now back to the original OP post.

But I like to know if anyone knows the answer to the question above...

Bart - There was post in another forum where the user mentioned that Boris said that ATP Nanodura SLC USB drives would work, as a replacement for a failing internal drive (P# ATP AF1GUFNDNC(I)-AABXX or ATP AF1GUFNDNC(I)-AAAXX). Both Boris and mattK also responded in the thread, and didn't take issue with those p#'s. Here is the thread:

https://www.wxforum.net/index.php?topic=38937.0

After a bit of googling, I found a very similar drive on Digikey ATP Nanodura SLC P#AF8GUFNDNC(I)-OEM-ND for ~ $140 US. I assume the difference between AF1 and AF8 in the first part is just 1GB vs 8gb drives, but no idea if that's correct. Also I have no idea if the difference in the last part after the dash matters. But there doesn't seem to be a lot of ATP Nanodura SLC options available, at least here in the US.

I'm not recommending you replace the internal drive (that will void your warranty), or even you should use one of these drives in the front USB port. Just wanted to point out some SLC drives that appear to meet the needs of more frequent database writes.

I'm a little intrigued by Gyvate using a SLC SD card and USB adapter. But I'm still a little on the fence about the benefit of using that, especially if it takes up the front USB port, as it makes database backups a lot less convenient. And a USB adapter is just another piece to fail. But seems like he is having good success with it. SD SLC cards are a lot more affordable, and if they're good enough to use in a PI and Nano, maybe the Pro too? There is a list of recommended/required SD cards for the NANO SD and MBRPi on the main meteobridge website.

I've had my MBPRO red for just over 2 yrs, and my internal drive shows :Internal 864 MB total, 759 MB free (12% used, 1.2 yrs) and the latest database backup is only 80mb. So I'm wondering how big a database could possibly get? Up until recently, I was just using the MBPro to upload real time data to another website template, and that would do a lot of the logging. So I never really paid much attention to the database size and maybe I don't actually have 2yrs worth of data? I am only just now discovering the capabilities of generating nice HTML charts, and these are quickly filling up the drive. I'm also running out of 'events' to offload / upload, so looking for a solution. Maybe a bigger drive would be nice, or maybe figure out a way to back these up to the external FAT32 drive?

[admin]

I can't find a topic (will be my fault) about using a thumb USB on an MB Pro. I formatted it on MS-DOS (fat) and a backup arrives just fine.

Yes right, it needs to have one partition (if it has more just 1st partition is used) and this has to be FAT32. I am not completely sure if VFAT is the same or compatible. The stick internally used in the MB is used as a raw device without partition. That has the reason to have the flash storage chunks better alligned to the filesystem buckets - at least that was the idea. As a result the interal stick will not be recognized easily when you put it into your PC as the missing partition info will make your OS struggling.

Is it correct that I can't read the USB through the Pro? That I have to connect it to my desktop (iMac) to read it?

Yes, it is not shared via SMB service on your PC network. Reason is that Meteobridge just mounts the external stick when doing the backup and un mounting it afterwards. This allows you to remove the stick safely most of the time. Tearing away a mounted file system is a bad idea as you can easily produce inconsistencies on it. As the external stick is not mounted most of the time, SMB has nothing to share as a consequence.

What else can I use the USB for? Can I use it for templates? I tried but could not discover the template other than on the internal USB.

It cannot be used for anything alse but backups.

In the admin / system tab I can choose whether the Pro boots from the internal USB or external USB (front or rear). What happens if I boot from the external USB? There is now only 1 database backup on it....

This option is from the early days when we delivered some first MB PRO with regular USB sticks and that all started to fail after a couple of months. It was a lot of RMA hassle and we learned never to spare 20$ on USB sticks and went for SLC and industrial grade only since then. To give affected users an option to have their systems working again without RMA we added the option to use the front USB connector to virtually be the internal one and to add a stick for internal operation there. Most who used it again used cosumer non-SLC sticks getting into trouble later on again. To make this long story short: Don’t use this option, we are also thinking about removing that again.
[/quote]

[Bart]

Thanks for the comprehensive and clear answer.
I understand that the consideration is to remove/inactivate the external USB, but can a solution be found in using an SLC (industry standard) drive? Whether or not an SD card via an adapter?

I personally would like that to prevent that if there is a problem with the internal USB, a solution must be found urgently. Better safe than sorry.
Can that already work? I'd buy that SLC right away if that was the case.
Thanks,

Bart

[Gyvate]

....
I'm a little intrigued by Gyvate using a SLC SD card and USB adapter. But I'm still a little on the fence about the benefit of using that, especially if it takes up the front USB port, as it makes database backups a lot less convenient.
....

I'm using the USB/microSD adapter in two (parallel) scenarios:
1. to replace the internal 1 GB SLC USB stick MBPro originally comes with. It's literally thumbnail size and it has a 8GB SLC microSD card inserted.
Even a 2 or 4 GB SLC USB stick costs a fortune compared to this solution.
And it's not taking up the front port. It sits inside where the internal USB stick was plugged in.

2. I'm using a similar setup for backup with the front USB port (bigger USB/microSD adapater and a 400 GB microSD for video streaming by NVRs). The backup process is very similar to a video stream recording and there is little risk that the SD card will be killed by too many I/O operations, whereas this would be the case if this type of SD card would be used to host the database.
One of my two MBPro has this adapter connected to the front for backup, another one an external HDD (not SSD) and runs on the power provided by the USB front port - with no issues for both solutions over more than a year now.

3. you could also connect an external SSD disk to the front USB port and run the database from there and use the rear one for backups. One would have to find out if the front USB port provides enough power for this scenario to run safely - or use an external power supply for the SSD.
But imo the internal USB/microSD SLC solution is more than enough - and as safe (and cost considerate) as it gets.

Your fear of having another SPOF (single point of failure) using an adapter I don't share. It is imo not justified as you always have an adapter in place, inside the USB stick, inside an external SSD or inside the USB/microSD adapter.

But, if the RPi solution had already existed when I went for my MBPros, I wouldn't have considered them. Now I'm running my main production with two stations on a 2GB RPi4B without any space or speed or other hardware related issue. - The MBPros have become test systems, but still ...
The financial break-even between a MBPro ("eternal" license) and MB on a RPi (2 year license) comes after 6 years - including the savings in the power consumption by the MBPro (provided bug fixes and new features are really necessary for you after the update license expires - if not the break even comes even later).

[admin]

In times of low availability of SLC USB storage going to SLC micro SD cards with an USB adapter is an obvious choice.
I also have ordered some of those for testing. If someone has experiences about that to share, please post.

In theory both options should be rather identical in speed and reliability, but you never know...

[Bart]

In times of low availability of SLC USB storage going to SLC micro SD cards with an USB adapter is an obvious choice.
I also have ordered some of those for testing. If someone has experiences about that to share, please post.

In theory both options should be rather identical in speed and reliability, but you never know...

I don't think I'm the only one curious about the results of your tests. I would like to hear the results if and when possible.
And also where you can buy the sd cards (and/or the USB sticks) in the EU. They are very limited available in the Netherlands.
Outside of that you are stuck with import taxes.