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Re: Meteobridge PRO Barometer? - Response and Accuracy?

Posted: Sun Mar 20, 2016 12:02 pm
by admin
D2149 wrote:The VP2 pressure reading with altitude set to 0000 is 26.42 inHg. (30.06 inHg at our elevation) So, it does appear that your altitude calculation is the source of the error.
Thank you so much! This was exactly what I did ask for many posts ago!
I checked rounding and resolution used by Meteobridge is 0.1 hPa.
Changes below that level are whiped out.
I can definitely do without the verbal abuse while "attempting" to get technical support!
You know that this is unfair as you resisted post over post to kindly provide the data I was asking for
to find the problems root cause.

Stations at your altitude are rare but interesting and as we see they are
challenging some algorithms that are fine elsewhere. I will work on improving the
sea level calculation to better fit stations at high altitude.

Thanks for your support.

Re: Meteobridge PRO Barometer? - Response and Accuracy?

Posted: Sun Mar 20, 2016 2:14 pm
by PWS
@D2149: The underlying problem here IMO is that there is more than one approach to correcting pressure to MSL. Davis use one approach while other authorities may use different algorithms. The Davis readings are not necessarily the gold standard, in fact Davis pressure readings seem quite commonly to be criticised in the US for not using a different and apparently more commonly used standard.If you look for example at the http://www.softwx.com/weather/vppressurecalc.html utility then you'll see that there are half a dozen or more different options.

In other words, there is not one definitively correct approach, instead there are several options which are all correct by different criteria and it becomes a matter of personal choice and context (eg are you reporting to a weather network that stipulates that pressure readings should be corrected in a particular way) as to which is the preferred option.

It's more work for Boris but I think that the only answer for MB/MBP is not to be too prescriptive but to recognise that there can be several valid options and to provide these as clearly-documented and distinct selectors for the user to choose as they prefer. A similar argument would also apply to assessing mean wind direction where not offering a vector mean (which is a widely used approach) is a clear deficiency at present.

Re: Meteobridge PRO Barometer? - Response and Accuracy?

Posted: Sun Mar 20, 2016 5:58 pm
by admin
Knowing that it is the formula for slp, i already spotted
a misconfiguration on my side. MB is always using a very simple
linear altitude based formula while I intended to give it
one taking thinner air in higher altitudes and temperature
Into account.
Unfortunately, i cannot test with the 3490 feet here, as
this will exceed what davis console is willing to display
when we already have 1013 hPa at zero elevation.

When someone with higher elevation is willing to give
it a test drive, please send your mac to me so that I
can enable this box for grabbing the beta version for testing.

Re: Meteobridge PRO Barometer? - Response and Accuracy?

Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2016 9:48 pm
by admin
Changes in sea level computation are part of the released update.
I will be happy to get feedback if this solves the issue. As I am
located near sealevel, I have to rely on some external test results...

Re: Meteobridge PRO Barometer? - Response and Accuracy?

Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 12:07 am
by D2149
admin wrote:Changes in sea level computation are part of the released update.
I will be happy to get feedback if this solves the issue. As I am
located near sealevel, I have to rely on some external test results...
Hi Boris,

I had to step away from this for a few days and clear my head. Regarding an improved build...Cool! I am eager to give this new version a test drive and see how it works compared to the previous builds.

Today both VP2s were reading 30.15 inHg, while the MBP was reading 30.02 inHg and has shown little upward movement even 4 hours after the VP2s began rising. Since once again the difference was over .10 inHg and growing wider every hour, I adjusted the offset on the MBP to bring its pressure reading into line with the VP2's pressure. That offset is currently (-0.110)

MBP Current RAW Pressures: (pre-build update)

Indoor 52s 92.3% 22.1°C 35% 1020.8hPa (892.1hPa) 71.8°F 35% 30.14inHg (26.34inHg)
System #9 22 sec 41.0°C 12% 1024.1hPa (895.4hPa) 105.8°F 12% 30.24inHg (26.44inHg)

Re: Meteobridge PRO Barometer? - Response and Accuracy?

Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 12:19 am
by D2149
I believe we have the latest build now?

SW Version: Meteobridge 2.8 (Mar 21 2016, build 9630), FW 1.4

There was an immediate downward change of -00.04 inHg in the MBP adjusted reading (with offset):

Indoor 36 sec 22.0°C 35% 1019.3hPa (892.0hPa) 71.6°F 35% 30.10inHg (26.34inHg)

This is also the lowest amount of negative offset I have needed to add to the MBP pressure data to get it to match the unadjusted VP2 pressure, so I can definitely see a difference in how the MBP is taking the RAW data and converting it based on our 3590 ft elevation input. :D

But not much in the RAW data and #9:

System #9 5 sec 41.7°C 11% 1024.0hPa (895.3hPa) 107.1°F 11% 30.24inHg (26.44inHg)

The current pressure from both VP2 consoles is: 30.14 inHg and STEADY.

I am going to adjust the MBP offset value now to bring the MBP pressure readings into line with the VP2's 30.14 inHg. I will then let things ride for several hours and report back on how well the MBP now tracks the pressure changes and remains synced to the VP2 sensors.

New MBP Pressure offset value: (-0.060) -- Current MBP adjusted pressure reading:

Indoor 14 sec 22.4°C 34% 1020.8hPa (893.6hPa) 72.3°F 34% 30.14inHg (26.39inHg)

Stay tuned. :)

P.S. My weather station banner below is updated every 1-2 minutes 24/7, so you can use that to keep tabs on what the VP2s are reporting for pressure since I posted the readings above. Just refresh this page to get the latest/new data.

Re: Meteobridge PRO Barometer? - Response and Accuracy?

Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 12:40 am
by D2149
PWS wrote:@D2149: The underlying problem here IMO is that there is more than one approach to correcting pressure to MSL. Davis use one approach while other authorities may use different algorithms. The Davis readings are not necessarily the gold standard, in fact Davis pressure readings seem quite commonly to be criticised in the US for not using a different and apparently more commonly used standard.If you look for example at the http://www.softwx.com/weather/vppressurecalc.html utility then you'll see that there are half a dozen or more different options.
Up here in the Sierra, the VP2 "IS" more or less the gold standard, at least for remote field reporting that includes Davis built stations operated by The National Weather Service/NOAA, Cal Fire and The National Parks Service. ;)

Hopefully Boris can sort out whatever is going on with his system at higher altitudes. It is proving to be quite a serious problem for the MBP while the VP2s have no problems accurately reporting any of their data points at these altitudes. There are a few VP2 stations on the Sierra Crest that are located over 8500 feet above sea level! Our 3590 is nothing by comparison, yet the VP2s work fine at either site. ;)

Perhaps this is why the VP2+ is pretty much all you see up here? The way I look at it...If its good enough for The National Weather Service, Cal Fire and Yosemite National Park its good enough for us and our loyal weather fans! :D

Re: Meteobridge PRO Barometer? - Response and Accuracy?

Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 5:40 am
by D2149
BAROMETER COMPARISON UPDATE

Here is where we stand at 8:35 p.m. PDT

Starting to see some drift beginning to creep in. The VP2s have risen 00.03 inHg while the MBP sensors have remained steady at their current reading. So once again, the primary issues of the MBP sensors failing to respond to single point changes up or down as compared to the VP2s continues to be a problem.

VP2s: 30.15 inHg

MBP: 30.12 inHg

Details:

Indoor 39s 70.0% 18.5°C 40% 1020.1hPa (894.3hPa) 65.3°F 40% 30.12inHg (26.41inHg)

System #9 20 sec 38.2°C 13% 1024.7hPa (896.0hPa) 100.8°F 13% 30.26inHg (26.46inHg)

====================================

QUESTION for Boris: Basically, is your pressure calculating algorithms only employed on the MBP and the device's built in pressure sensors? I wouldn't think it would necessary to use this on the VP2's pressure data running through the regular Meteobridge, but wanted to confirm that.

Thanks in advance. :D

Re: Meteobridge PRO Barometer? - Response and Accuracy?

Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 8:59 am
by D2149
COMPARISON UPDATE @ 12:00 a.m.

VP2s: 30.21 inHg

MBP: 30.16inHg (26.43inHg)

The gap between the two systems has grown to 00.05 inHg over the last 10 hours since they were both matched up to report the exact same pressure result. Not sure what that informs you to do next Boris? The overriding difference I continue to see between the VP2 pressure sensor and the MBP sensor is the difference in sensitivity. The VP2 sensors are much more reactive to subtle pressure changes both high and low in nature.

If you put these two sets of data into a graph and compare the two, it becomes blatantly obvious that the MBP sensors are ignoring or failing to track the same changes that the VP2 sensors are reliably reporting. The result is a pressure graph from the MBP that erroneously portrays a day of barometric pressure ranging from moderately STEADY behavior to a nearly STATIC

Can the MBP's pressure sensor's sensitivity be increased to allow it to see and report .01 to .03 inHg level pressure changes at the same level as the VP2s? It seems to me that we really need to find this parity between the two systems first before attempting to remove the need for the remaining offset required on the MBP sensor's final output.

Re: Meteobridge PRO Barometer? - Response and Accuracy?

Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 5:55 pm
by D2149
The latest:

MBP: 30.34inHg (26.50inHg)

VP2s: 30.31 inHg

Re: Meteobridge PRO Barometer? - Response and Accuracy?

Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 4:07 am
by D2149
-----------------------
We should note at the close of this week long pressure sensor comparison/test that ALL other features of our Meteobridge PRO unit are working beautifully with no issues to report of ANY KIND!
All Weather Nets connect and report as scehduled with no errors, Twitter strings post on schedule with no errors, as does all other enabled features. The only issue we continue to experience is with the unit's internal Barometer/Pressure Sensor (s)


CONCLUSION SUMMARY of Internal Barometer Tests: If you would like all the details of my final comparison testing, it is all listed further down the page. But here are the key points and issues I have discovered over the last 7 days of monitoring and comparing the two system's pressure sensors...

When comparing the sensitivity and overall accuracy of the MBP's internal Barometer and the VP2 Console's Barometer, I have reached the following conclusions based on our location and elevation:

1) The VP2 Console is more accurate and responsive to pressure changes than the sensor inside the MBP.

2) The MBP sensors appear to lack sensitivity within the .01 to .03 inHg range and fails to measure/report pressure changes within this range nearly 100% of the time.

3) The MBP is very slow to track pressure trends and lags behind the VP2 reported pressure readings by several hours, due in large part to #2.

4) MBP pressure reports observed during these periods of lag often results in a disparity as high as 00.30 inHg between current MBP reported pressure and current VP2 reported pressure. Once the pressure at our location stabilizes and reaches a balanced/steady state, the MBP will "eventually" catch up to the VP2s and report a pressure value within 00.03 inHg + or - of our two VP2 Consoles. But rarely has it returned the exact same reading, and usually requires an offset adjustment of between 00.02 and 00.10 inHg + or - in order to produce a pressure reading that is exactly the same value as the two VP2 Consoles, which are always in sync with each other, and have remained so for the last 4 years.

..........................

FULL DETAILS

RECAP: Our station is located in the Sierra Nevada Mountain Range about 8 miles southwest of Yosemite National Park at an altitude of 3,590 feet.

The accuracy issues of the MBP pressure sensors as compared to the VP2 pressure sensors seems to be an artifact related directly to our location's altitude. Thus... MBP users living at lower elevations and/or who experience less active atmospheric pressure changes may not be experiencing the same issues as we have reported in this thread and will conclude reporting here based on this location's pressure data.

We had to realign the offset again at 2:00 p.m. PDT this afternoon when the MBP's latest pressure readings were off from the two VP2s by almost 00.10 inHg. As we approach hour number (5) since that latest matching adjustment, the MBP pressure sensor is already -00.02 inHg lower than the latest VP2 pressure readings. (Remaining on the same value and indicating a "Steady Pressure State" despite a notable upward spike reported by both VP2 consoles over the same time period)

If the pressure over our location continues to increase, the MBP will eventually rise above its current reading. However, if the rise stops and then trends back down, then the MBP will likely remain at its current result, basically failing to report the 2 point rise and fall this afternoon. Instead showing no change over this entire time period, and once again failing to identify a pressure trend in progress.

My conclusions based on all these days of comparison testing is that if a Meteobridge PRO user is running a VP2 station with their meteobridge PRO, the pressure sensor providing the most resolution and accuracy of barometric pressure changes over time is hands down their VP2's pressure sensor. If like us, they have split their data uploading duties between a dedicated weather computer/software sending ALL data from their VP2 and the MBP sending ISS data from the VP2 in addition to MBP pressure data instead of VP2 Console pressure data, having this inconsistent pressure data history across all weather sites is going to start looking odd and confusing for anyone tracking such a station via multiple weather sites on the internet.

If a station operator is only using the MBP to upload all of their data to their various weather sites on the WWW, then they won't be confusing their users with two different pressure readings, BUT based on our conclusions, they will also not be posting a "complete" history of their location's pressure data over time, and will be displaying pressure graphs lacking the detail and accuracy of any neighboring stations using a VP2's Console pressure data. (Unless you graph them up, side by side like we did, you are not going to see how big the difference truly is!)

Unless something can be done to improve the sensitivity of the MBP sensors, they are never going to capture ALL of the available pressure data occurring at your station location, will falsely report a steady pressure state while also failing to report the true barometric pressure at any given point in time.

If the MBP can be updated to allow users of the VP2 console to bypass the MBP pressure sensor and instead use the pressure data from the VP2 console for uploading to Weather Nets and storing within its historical data, at least they would have a more accurate option. Granted, these users will no longer be using the pressure sensors inside the MBP which kind of seems like a waste of resources. but given the lack of resolution and accuracy we observed with our MBP's pressure sensors, this resource isn't a viable one in the first place. (We still suspect that our MBP has defective pressure sensors, or at the very least sensors that are terribly out of spec)

Questions and requests for the developer... Any thoughts on what can be done here?

•) Can the sensor sensitivity be increased to the point that the MBP tracks these smaller pressure trends to the same degree that the VP2 Console's sensor does?
•) Is it possible to provide a new user option that allows VP2 console owners with a data logger the ability to use the VP2 Barometer instead of the MBP's internal pressure sensor?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts on all my recent comparison reports and final conclusions.

[This will be our last post on this topic unless additional information is requested]

Cheers.

[]Rick. :)

[EDIT >> 03/24/16]

Just one day after we had concluded our VP2 vs MBP pressure sensor comparison, we saw the biggest disparity between these two sensors of any day so far. At the peak of the disparity, the MBP was under-reporting the high pressure spike by a whopping -00.23 inHg before it slowly rose over several hours to just +00.01 inHg shy of the correct high of the day as reported by our two VP2 consoles! The VP2 Barometer in both of our VP2 consoles tracked the quite rapid rise, along with the recorded high of 30.33 inHg. The MBP on the other hand took nearly 2 hours to reach the same pressure range, but was not synced with the VP2's high for the day.

So... during the period of time that the MBP was playing "catch-up" we had the MBP driven feeds on the web posting our current pressure as 30.13 inHg, while at the exact same moment in time the VP2 fed stations were posting the CORRECT current pressure of 30.33 inHg, which ended up being our high for the day.

Once again, the event described above demonstrates the primary issue with the MBP pressure sensors, which is LAG! The painfully slow reaction time our MBP pressure sensors display day after day when compared to the VP2s. While once the pressure stabilizes and becomes steady the MBP eventually catches up, and with some offset tweaking can be made to sync with the VP2's steady reading, the MBP has NEVER accurately tracked a rapid pressure trend, either a downward trend or an upward trend.

Re: Meteobridge PRO Barometer? - Response and Accuracy?

Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2016 12:56 pm
by Mattk
Quite frankly your tone and attitude is starting to wear thin, much like the atmosphere :)

Re: Meteobridge PRO Barometer? - Response and Accuracy?

Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2016 2:54 pm
by D2149
Mattk wrote:Quite frankly your tone and attitude is starting to wear thin, much like the atmosphere :)
Trolling a tech support forum twice in three days? Thats pretty sad.

FYI:

Boris has asked me numerous times to run any and all of my MBP problem reports through this forum so everyone can benefit from his answer (s), so I am simply complying with his request. I personally much prefer using email since it avoids having the conversation derailed by trolls and other self important wannabes. Up until a few days ago, I was pleased to see that this forum was free of such distractions.

Now that I have fully documented this "pressure inaccuracy at altitude" issue as requested by the developer a week ago via email, I have total faith in Boris to eventually sort this out and get the pressure issues corrected. But he said himself earlier in this thread that he needed MY input in order to help him resolve it, since his own location altitude is much lower than ours. I guess you missed the part about him finding errors in his algothrhtm that he would not have found if it had not been for my raising this issue in the first place?

Yeah... Not surprised you missed that. Its a discovery that actually effects everyone who owns a MBP.


Finally...

"Quite frankly"... If I were you, I'd be spending all this free time fixing your broken weather station than pretending to be some kind of forum moderator. You don't need any credibility for that.

Re: Meteobridge PRO Barometer? - Response and Accuracy?

Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2016 12:44 am
by Mattk
So did you ever do they very simple thing that Boris asked for, access to the MB, did you comply with that request? Not that I ever saw!

Everybody wants to see things fixed that are not right but you my friend need to take a breath without the insinuations and this continuous rant on about VP2 this and VP2 that, trust me they are not perfect either and I have probably been dealing with Davis issues for a lot longer than you would care about.

And the last thing don't ever call me a troll, but then it may fit with your approach, which so far I am not impressed with based on this thread. Work with Boris not this high and mighty over the top condescending demanding approach but if haven't given Boris access to your unit then until you do any further comment is a waste of space.

Re: Meteobridge PRO Barometer? - Response and Accuracy?

Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2016 2:43 pm
by admin
Looks like the new formula used for Meteobridge (not just the PRO also applied to the regular MBs with Meteostick) makes readings much closer to the Davis sensor. As user D2149 was still not seeing good enough readings in absolute pressure and especially in responsiveness to short term minor changes, he returned his unit, which is fine.

I think all has been said here. As emotions are going high, I close the thread. When other users experience pressure problems, please open up a new thread and we all start with a cold head again. Anyway, the discussion helped to improve MB PRO pressure readings. Thanks.